 |
HarvestNET.org Dedicated to those searching for the truth about how to be the Church
|
|
| Author |
Message |
Teri 5 cute ducklings


Joined: 25 Nov 2005 Last Visit: 18 Jul 2010 Posts: 4880 Topics: 169 Location: North Carolina
|
Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 5:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
eweiss, thanks for the effort to post this. I've gone to the FACTNet discussion forums and looked around. After reading a lot of the various discussions about various leaders, cults, or groups, I've decided that what is happening very frequently there at FACTNet is that a person says something about the group or cult leader, and then the thread gets "trolled" by other posters who are coming on the forum for the express purpose of "debating" those who have left the cults. Oftentimes there is an great deal of hostility and high emotions expressed there at FACTNet, that is for sure! The thread on Anthony of Trinity Foundation at FACTNET is "mild" by comparison to many of the other threads. Here is the thread at FACTnet about Ole Anthony and Trinity Foundation: http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/21117.html?1150421878 Now I expect that FACTNet can't tell who is the cult member the ex-cult member, and who is the "troll" and who isn't. After all, a little known fact is that many cult members, even pseudo-Biblical ones, are taught to lie or tell half truths and that is okay, as long as it is for the sake of the "ministry". So, my guess is that FACTNet just lets the feathers fly on their discussion forums. I'm not criticizing them for that-- I am saying that I can understand their way of doing things considering the anonymity of most posters and the subject they deal with there. Anyone who wants to see the debate at FACTNet, can. Also, "formercultist" does have a website which he gave in one of his messages on the thread: VM Life Sources http://www.dallascult.com/ That is apparently where you can get the book, which sounds like it would elaborate on his experience with Trinity: Here's the description of the book which I got from that website: | Quote: | | I Can't Hear God Anymore:Life in a Dallas Cult Description: The true story of a former member's involvement and eventual separation from a Bible-based cult, the Trinity Foundation, in Dallas, Texas. I Can't Hear God Anymore is an instructive example of how normal people can be vulnerable to the psychological manipulations and spiritual abuse of a skilled cult leader. It is also an inspiring story of hope, as the author details her struggle to regain her psychological and spiritual health after leaving the group, and explains how others caught in similar circumstances can do the same. |
As for me, I don't know anything about it, but it has been discussed at the FACTnet forum, which "former cultist" was on too. That's why I gave the reference to that forum in case anyone wanted to see more. -Teri Admin note: This thread was temporarily locked at this point to prevent complaints of people coming on the forum only to make one post to defend Ole Anthony or challenge "formercultist." No posts were deleted. It was unlocked about 2 1/2 weeks later when additional news came out about the controversy, and will remain unlocked. _________________ "The church is never a place, but always a people; never a fold but always a flock; never a building but always a believing assembly. The church is you who pray, not where you pray."
-Anonymous
--------------------------------
Last edited by Teri on Mon Aug 21, 2006 9:33 pm; edited 2 times in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
eweiss 5 cute ducklings


Joined: 19 Feb 2006 Last Visit: 02 Jan 2007 Posts: 1642 Topics: 75 Location: "Second [star] to the right and then straight on till morning."
|
Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 8:15 pm Post subject: The Cult of Ole - Dallas Observer |
|
|
| This week's Dallas Observer hit the streets today with a l-e-n-g-t-h-y cover article on homeboy Ole Anthony, his history (not quite the way Ole has told it), his investigations (it appears that he and his crew kind of doctored the evidence against Bob Tilton - to be discussed further in a Dallas Observer blog), his theology (a bit whacked), and his practices (also a bit whacked): The Cult of Ole This is why Doug Duncan and his wife wrote their book. FYI - The Dallas Observer is the local free, alternative, muckracking, liberal rag. It's been sympathetic to Ole for years, so it's kind of surprising to see this. However, it's also based on 25 hours' worth of interviews with Ole. The article is wrong in a couple minor details that I know something about - e.g., the details about Berean and Norman Grubb are not quite correct, as I understand it (I can explain, but it's beside the point) - so I hope the rest of the story doesn't suffer from such lapses. An interesting read. I could probably write paragraphs of comments, but I won't. Next week's Letters to the Editor will probably be pretty hot. _________________ Φως ιλαρον αγιας δοξης αθανατου Πατρος,
Ουρανιου, αγιου, μακαρος, Ιησου Χριστε,
Ελθοντες επι την ηλιου δυσιν, ιδοντες φως εσπερινον,
Υμνουμεν Πατερα, Υιον, και Αγιον Πνευμα, Θεον,
Αξιον σε εν πασι καιροις υμνεισθαι φωναις αισιαις,
Υιε Θεου, ζωην ο διδους,
Διο ο κοσμος σε δοξαζει. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
eweiss 5 cute ducklings


Joined: 19 Feb 2006 Last Visit: 02 Jan 2007 Posts: 1642 Topics: 75 Location: "Second [star] to the right and then straight on till morning."
|
Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 9:03 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| 2 articles/sidebars that accompany the main story: The Man and the Myth The Thorn in Their Side _________________ Φως ιλαρον αγιας δοξης αθανατου Πατρος,
Ουρανιου, αγιου, μακαρος, Ιησου Χριστε,
Ελθοντες επι την ηλιου δυσιν, ιδοντες φως εσπερινον,
Υμνουμεν Πατερα, Υιον, και Αγιον Πνευμα, Θεον,
Αξιον σε εν πασι καιροις υμνεισθαι φωναις αισιαις,
Υιε Θεου, ζωην ο διδους,
Διο ο κοσμος σε δοξαζει. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
eweiss 5 cute ducklings


Joined: 19 Feb 2006 Last Visit: 02 Jan 2007 Posts: 1642 Topics: 75 Location: "Second [star] to the right and then straight on till morning."
|
Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 8:57 am Post subject: Re: The Cult of Ole - Dallas Observer |
|
|
| eweiss wrote: | | The article is wrong in a couple minor details that I know something about - e.g., the details about Berean and Norman Grubb are not quite correct, as I understand it (I can explain, but it's beside the point) - so I hope the rest of the story doesn't suffer from such lapses. |
Maybe I shouldn't have said "wrong." My quibble is that this seems to imply that Norman Grubb was a Berean preacher, and from my understanding, Norman Grubb may have been a visiting preacher, but he wasn't part of Berean. We used to attend a church pastored by a former Berean member, and I used to be in a Union Life group headed by a lady who used to edit Norman Grubb's books (Norman Grubb was with Union Life and maybe even helped start it). In his book CROSSFIRE (transcripts of his radio interviews), Ole reserved his last chapter, I think, for J. W. Luman, the head of Berean, and considered J. W.'s teachings to have had the most impact on Ole's life, IIRC. J. W. Luman visited our former church several times, and some members ended up joining J. W.'s fellowship in Arkansas. The Dallas Observer account of Ole's conversion compared to the one in The New Yorker: | thenewyorkerdecember2004 wrote: | | http://www.trinityfi.org/press/newyorker.html On the day of Anthony's conversion—January 17, 1972—he was thirty-three years old and hadn't belonged to a church in more than two decades. A few months earlier, he had been hired as a fund-raiser for an all-Christian television station called KBFI, one of the first of its kind in the country. An evangelist named Norman Grubb had been invited to speak at the station's dedication, and Anthony was in the audience. He still isn't sure what happened next. He has gone back and read Grubb's books and found much to dispute in his theology. But on that day its essential message—that all success is an illusion and all striving futile; that selflessness is the only real path to transcendence—stirred some certainty inside him. "It was like being taken into the heart of God," he says. An hour and a half later, the other businessmen had left the auditorium, but Anthony was still in his seat, sobbing. Religious conversions, like rock-star documentaries, nearly always follow the same pattern: the skyrocketing success and riches without fulfillment, the fall from grace and the rise to new heights on the wings of faith. | | dallasobserverarticle wrote: | | Anthony had come to the faith on January 17, 1972, in a powerful road-to-Damascus experience. He was 33, running a public relations firm and working with the Berean Fellowship, which was buying Channel 33. One day, a Berean preacher named Norman Grubb said something that drilled deep into Anthony's soul: "The purpose of every star in the universe, the purpose of every blade of grass, is that you should learn to become a son of God." Anthony says he was taken "into the heart of God," with light coming from everywhere. He had an overwhelming sense of peace and joy. He left time. When he became aware he was sobbing, Anthony prayed, "God, if you are real and what this guy is saying is true, then this is what I want, and I don't care what it is going to cost me." |
The "Union Life" message that Norman Grubb shared and that impacted Ole Anthony comes by revelation, just as it came to Ole. (I'm not saying that I fully agree anymore with the Union Life message, only commenting on how it is revealed.) It doesn't come by putting people on a "hot seat" and subjecting them to est- or primal-therapy-like teardowns that can do great damage in the wrong hands (and sometimes even in the right hands). Likewise, to assert as the article claims Ole asserts that Jesus would have used similar techniques on His disciples strikes me as ludicrous. | dallasobserverarticle wrote: | | Now the group took Holloway's list and ripped him. The goal: to attack until he broke. Some hot seats would last until after midnight and begin again the next day. "It was brutal," Holloway says. "The whole purpose was to die to self, to get in touch with the fact that you were chief of sinners." After reducing Holloway to a sobbing wreck, everybody hugged him. He felt numb. "I'm confident that this is what Christ did with the disciples," Anthony explains today. In his theology, if you are not at "perfect rest and peace" when time ends, you cannot enter God's kingdom. Wrestling with his own anger, anxiety and spiritual angst, Duncan embraced the idea. |
Jesus was at times scathing in His denunciation of the religious authorities, but He didn't tear people apart to free them to enter God's kingdom. He told the rich young ruler to follow Him; He didn't hot-seat him into seeing the futility of his riches. Zaccheus's repentance wasn't because Jesus put him on the hot seat. The woman caught in adultery was told to go and sin no more; Jesus didn't subsequently take her or the adulterous Samaritan women back to His group and grill them on the hot seat to get to the root of their problems. [I can't categorically state that this is never what a person needs. In his book THE RAGAMUFFIN GOSPEL, Brennan Manning relates a brutal account of a man who only saw and admitted the truth about his alcoholism when he was confronted with what he had done to his family because of it after the group mercilessly exposed and pummeled him with his lies. (If you have the book, it's about the man whose drinking caused him to leave his daughter to nearly freeze to death in a car, with a resulting loss of hearing and even some fingers, I think.) But to make this a one-size-fits-all method of addressing, getting to the root of, and resolving people's stumbling blocks and hindrances to properly living the Christian life, as it appears was done at Trinity for many, many years, seems to me to be a wrong way of doing things.] I've shared this before, but I was once with a friend who was getting frustrated because people weren't "repenting" and responding to her harsh message to them. I asked her: "K____, when God talks to you about changing some things in your life, does He talk to you the way you are talking to these people?" She replied, "No." "Then why," I asked, "do you think that your talking to them that way will get them to change?" I understand Ole's frustration. IIRC, I was at a morning Bible study where Ole said to the people there that they "just didn't get it" and that in all his years teaching them that none of them were "getting it." (I believe it was one I attended, and not just one that I listened to online.) Well, if after years and years people aren't "getting it," maybe the problem is not with the people but with a) the message, b) the messenger, or c) the method. _________________ Φως ιλαρον αγιας δοξης αθανατου Πατρος,
Ουρανιου, αγιου, μακαρος, Ιησου Χριστε,
Ελθοντες επι την ηλιου δυσιν, ιδοντες φως εσπερινον,
Υμνουμεν Πατερα, Υιον, και Αγιον Πνευμα, Θεον,
Αξιον σε εν πασι καιροις υμνεισθαι φωναις αισιαις,
Υιε Θεου, ζωην ο διδους,
Διο ο κοσμος σε δοξαζει. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
formercultist 1 cute duckling

Joined: 17 Jun 2006 Last Visit: 07 Feb 2007 Posts: 13 Topics: 0 Location: Dallas, TX
|
Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 10:44 pm Post subject: More |
|
|
There is another piece to the Observer story which has just been posted today on their blog. There are some questions being raised about the integrity of the original PrimeTime Live investigation into Robert Tilton in 1991 in which Ole participated. In fact, that investigation pretty much laid the foundation for Ole's subsequent career as a televangelist watchdog. See http://www.dallasobserver.com/blogs/ _________________ www.dallascult.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
eweiss 5 cute ducklings


Joined: 19 Feb 2006 Last Visit: 02 Jan 2007 Posts: 1642 Topics: 75 Location: "Second [star] to the right and then straight on till morning."
|
Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 10:52 pm Post subject: Re: More |
|
|
| formercultist wrote: | | There is another piece to the Observer story which has just been posted today on their blog. There are some questions being raised about the integrity of the original PrimeTime Live investigation into Robert Tilton in 1991 in which Ole participated. In fact, that investigation pretty much laid the foundation for Ole's subsequent career as a televangelist watchdog. See http://www.dallasobserver.com/blogs/ |
I've been waiting for that to be posted. The article said it was forthcoming. Thanks for the "heads up," Doug. _________________ Φως ιλαρον αγιας δοξης αθανατου Πατρος,
Ουρανιου, αγιου, μακαρος, Ιησου Χριστε,
Ελθοντες επι την ηλιου δυσιν, ιδοντες φως εσπερινον,
Υμνουμεν Πατερα, Υιον, και Αγιον Πνευμα, Θεον,
Αξιον σε εν πασι καιροις υμνεισθαι φωναις αισιαις,
Υιε Θεου, ζωην ο διδους,
Διο ο κοσμος σε δοξαζει. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
eweiss 5 cute ducklings


Joined: 19 Feb 2006 Last Visit: 02 Jan 2007 Posts: 1642 Topics: 75 Location: "Second [star] to the right and then straight on till morning."
|
Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 2:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| The new issue of The Dallas Observer came out today, but there were no Letters to the Editor about the Ole Anthony story. Maybe they got so many that they want to wait until next week's issue. Or maybe they got none. From the factnet forum on Ole by a person who described himself on June 20, 2006 as: "I've been a part of this community and an employee of the Foundation for approxamately three months." Monday August 7 he posted: "They're for the most part in totlal denial and will barely acknowledge the existence of the article. They won't talk about it. But I do know that this thing has put grave doubts in the minds of more TFI [Trinity Foundation] people than just myself." and he wrote that he left the group (i.e., Trinity) late Sunday night, August 6, saying: "I'm outta here, man." (Note: Any spelling errors are from the factnet poster, as all I did was copy and paste.) _________________ Φως ιλαρον αγιας δοξης αθανατου Πατρος,
Ουρανιου, αγιου, μακαρος, Ιησου Χριστε,
Ελθοντες επι την ηλιου δυσιν, ιδοντες φως εσπερινον,
Υμνουμεν Πατερα, Υιον, και Αγιον Πνευμα, Θεον,
Αξιον σε εν πασι καιροις υμνεισθαι φωναις αισιαις,
Υιε Θεου, ζωην ο διδους,
Διο ο κοσμος σε δοξαζει. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
formercultist 1 cute duckling

Joined: 17 Jun 2006 Last Visit: 07 Feb 2007 Posts: 13 Topics: 0 Location: Dallas, TX
|
Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 11:36 pm Post subject: Letter to the Observer |
|
|
| I think the letters will be in next week's edition. Here is a letter that an old friend of mine whom I knew back in high school (I haven't seen her for at least 25 years, though we have been in touch a little lately via the modern miracle of email) sent, which I have because she copied me on it. She said the Observer emailed her back to get permission to print it, so I think it will be in next week--probably edited for length. However, you saw it here first: I'm glad someone finally had the courage to publish a book about the real Ole Anthony. Thank you, Wendy Duncan. And thanks to the Observer for having the journalistic savvy to follow up on it. On the surface, your comical front page last week seems almost as silly as depicting Ole behind a locked compound, handing out Nikes and serving Kool-Aid. Just hard to take seriously. But that doesn't mean that the danger at Trinity isn't real. Unfortunately, the very word "cult" conjures up visions of something evil and extreme, and it's easy to miss the subtle criteria. Does a "cult leader" only earn that eerie title by causing a newsworthy tragedy? Isn't causing personal tragedy enough? Isn't diabolically derailing families a cult-worthy accusation? Ole's ability to maintain such a startling level of psychological control over people's lives for so many years is scarier to me than a flash-in-the-pan madman who blows his cover. I doubt we'll ever see the dreaded headlines that something snapped and it all got ugly. It only gets personally ugly for people like Doug and Wendy, who trusted Ole Anthony, only to be devastated and disillusioned by his abuse and deception. No wonder they couldn't hear God anymore. The fact that Ole indeed has an uncult-like "come and go" policy is not comforting, but only indicates that he is successfully persuasive without walls. Somehow, he also manages to stay respectable in the public light -- which all means that he is real good at this. I also see no reason to be reassured by any defense from Ole's camp, glorifying his virtues. If anything, support from his constituency only serves to confirm that in the face of this blatancy, people can still be unbelievably gullible. And aren't cult followers notoriously guilty of being sadly oblivious? Wendy Duncan's husband Doug was a close high school friend of mine, before and during the time he got into this Trinity Foundation mess. So I've known Ole was bad news since 1977, when Doug initially had some serious questions and wanted me to meet with him to check out his theology. Ole sat uncomfortably close to me in a circular booth at Denny's, with an imposing sensuality that was quite intimidating to a 21-year-old. After first testing my scriptural knowledge, he fed me his twisted revision. His spiritual pitch was about surrendering individual identity in favor of losing oneself in a melting oneness of all believers. He said this was the only way God would accept us in heaven, because expressing individuality meant asserting self, which was sinful. Ole said this was our eternal destiny, heavily implying that it should begin more tangibly in the here and now. Contrary to Ole, I felt that my relationship with God depended on it being personally intimate. So, the obvious red flag was that if I bought his theology and laid down my identity, then I'd also relinquish my free will and the ability to make my own decisions. No, I wasn't thinking "Run, it's a cult!" But I did get his agenda -- loud and clear. Doug didn't see things my way, and told me more about Ole's ideas, like the unsurprising revelation that premarital sex was totally fine, because "to the pure all things are pure" (a wildly irresponsible interpretation of Titus 1:15). With this kind of theology, which allowed so-called freedom without offending the Christian conscience, it's no wonder that young people were drawn to Ole. When my friend's strong faith was misdirected so easily, it certainly foreshadowed Ole's uncanny influence. What I didn't see was the years of misery it would cost him. I've always believed that from it's very roots, Trinity represented something quite foreign from the true Gospel. And it seems from all reports that Ole just continued in that vein and built more falsehood on that faulty foundation. As for his watchdog business, the oldest trick in the book is finding someone worse to criticize to make yourself look better. He did that masterfully by going after the big ministry guns. The bigger the gun, the better it would make him seem. He wasn't one of "them"-- he was the Christian crusader for justice. Or was he? Being the wife of an ordained minister for many years has put me on the forefront of concern about corruption in the church. I am distraught when people are hurt. But Ole's methods of exposing televangelists were almost gleeful and bloodthirsty. Based on that alone, you gotta wonder what team he's batting for. He is like a surgeon (an unlicensed one at that) who goes after a disease by slicing the patient to death with a kitchen knife. A skilled surgeon will treat the patient, not ravage him. Apparently, he dealt with his own ministry the same way. I hope that Ole's antics being exposed will curtail others from getting involved with him. I also hope that his career as a watchdog is shut down. Ministers are people too, and inevitably some will do things wrong. There is certainly much to correct. But who should handle the wrong and how? Ole is surely not the "who" and he doesn't have the compassion or a clue about the scriptural way to do the "how". Ole Anthony claims to represent my God? I don't think so. _________________ www.dallascult.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Teri 5 cute ducklings


Joined: 25 Nov 2005 Last Visit: 18 Jul 2010 Posts: 4880 Topics: 169 Location: North Carolina
|
Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 12:58 am Post subject: Re: Letter to the Observer |
|
|
| formercultist wrote: | | Unfortunately, the very word "cult" conjures up visions of something evil and extreme, and it's easy to miss the subtle criteria. Does a "cult leader" only earn that eerie title by causing a newsworthy tragedy? Isn't causing personal tragedy enough? |
I totally agree. -Teri _________________ "The church is never a place, but always a people; never a fold but always a flock; never a building but always a believing assembly. The church is you who pray, not where you pray."
-Anonymous
-------------------------------- |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Ian Vincent 5 cute ducklings

Joined: 04 Feb 2006 Last Visit: 01 Jun 2007 Posts: 1043 Topics: 71 Location: Central India
|
Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 1:30 am Post subject: |
|
|
formercultist wrote: | Quote: | | His spiritual pitch was about surrendering individual identity in favor of losing oneself in a melting oneness of all believers. He said this was the only way God would accept us in heaven, because expressing individuality meant asserting self, which was sinful. |
Yeah, i've come across that, its a real phenomena, a device of the enemy. Was Ole Anthony prepared to surrender his own individual identity for the common good? ( hypothetically - as i know nothing about him) Unity, but never on an artificial, or forced, or contradictory/hypocritical level. Therefore true leaders must have no contradictions in their life, as our Lord and Apostles stipulated. Their life is their message. ian v. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|